The Vine with Joe & Katie Devine

Inside OCIA: What Today’s Converts Are Really Seeking

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We sit down with John Mark, a director of faith formation, to talk about why so many adults are entering the Catholic Church right now and what that tells us about the culture. We also wrestle with evangelization, fear, and the simple habits that keep a family rooted when life feels loud. 
• how Joe and Katie met John Mark through a men’s group and late-night conversations 
• what OCIA is and why so many adults sign up 
• why collapsing institutions make the Church feel steady 
• how COVID reshapes parish life and commitment 
• Gen Z, image culture, and the power of Catholic beauty 
• truth, goodness, and beauty as different doors to faith 
• why you do not need to be a theologian to witness 
• practical evangelization through real conversation and presence 
• why first responders are drawn to Catholic funerals and hope 
• “roots and fruits” as a way to name what grounds a marriage 
Thank you guys for listening and let’s keep growing together 


An exclusive from Dery Media Podcasts. Explore diverse perspectives and enrich your knowledge at derymedia.com. Telling stories that matter, sparking meaningful discussions.

Welcome And Meet John Mark

SPEAKER_04

Hello.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, everyone. Welcome back. I'm Katie.

SPEAKER_04

I'm Joe, and this is.

SPEAKER_01

Wait, we have to introduce our guest.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, with those. Okay. Hello. We have a third guest. Guest, introduce yourself. Hello. I'm John Mark. How's it going? Yeah, this is the Vine. Oh, that was cute. Yeah. That one we are practiced at. We are very practiced at that. That was really nice to watch. John Mark, thank you for joining us. It's a pleasure to be here. So I guess I'll give you a quick introduction of how we met, how we know each other, and then we'll do our pits and peeks. So I met John Mark at a Zay like group Bible study, like a new Bible study. It wasn't, I guess, a Bible study.

SPEAKER_05

It was kind of like those one of those Bible studies where you're doing the the Sunday readings. So it's not really a Bible study, but you're reading the Bible and you are talking about it. Men's group. Men's group. Yeah. Fishers. God bless.

SPEAKER_04

Oh yeah. It is we do have a name. Fishers of Men. It's great. Um and we didn't honestly, we almost never made it through all three readings, which is really funny. Um, but we uh ended up our first night there were the first night you and I were there, which was I think maybe like the third or second night they showed up. Um we ended up talking for like two and a half hours about um utilitarianism and getting into heaven. Oh yeah. Like all sorts of random stuff. And that's how I knew I was like, this is gonna be somebody that I enjoy talking to. This is gonna be good. Um and then yeah, just like every time we were all at the meetings together, you and I usually ended up sitting around a fire and it was like 1 30 in the morning, usually.

SPEAKER_01

And I would be like stuck in the room listening to them in the backyard chatting away.

SPEAKER_04

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01

It was all it was all good conversation. Oh, it was wonderful. I'm just lame, I just go to bed at like nine o'clock.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and yeah, and then uh I you let me know that there was an open position. You needed somebody to do middle school youth ministry. And uh I said, let me think about it. And then I remember very vividly I called you. I was at the beach, this was like I guess three years ago at this point. We were at our family beach vacation. I said, sure, I'll you know, I'll do it. We kind of we talked through the framework or whatever. I said, Yeah, we can do that, I'll do it. And then uh I remember saying, like, when do you want me to start? And I think you were like, Two weeks. I was like, can we can we back that up? And you're like, we got stuff already kind of planned on two weeks, sounds great. We'll be we'll be there.

SPEAKER_05

I'm gonna be honest, I don't remember that at all. So that sounds about right, but here we are. I imagine you were probably pretty busy. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That time too, we kind of like randomly asked you about it as well because we were like looking for some way to like serve the church. We were like, Well, we don't have a baby and we don't know when that's gonna happen. So, like, how can we serve the church right now?

SPEAKER_04

And it was uh it was that way. So, oh, and I guess it would help to say um you

How We Met Through Men’s Group

SPEAKER_04

are the your title is director of faith formation?

SPEAKER_05

Yes, I'm the director of faith formation at our Later the Roja Catholic Church in Greenville, South Carolina. I haven't said that at all.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's not on your email bio for sure. Not at all.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I see it every day.

SPEAKER_04

Um so that's how, again, you know, a big reason why we wanted to have you on the podcast. And I don't know if we've come up with like a title for it or not, but um we, you know, I reached out to you because you are uniquely, I'll say, qualified and experienced to talk about um just what we're kind of seeing in the in the church right now with so many people coming back to the faith, uh, and with so many people entering the church, and what are, you know, uh we just want to talk about like what are maybe some of the things we're not understanding about it or that we might be missing about it? What are some of the cool things that you have seen happen through it? Um, as well as like what your personal style to ministry because we were just talking about it. You have twenty two people signed up right now, is that correct? Yes, twenty-two, but registrations for OCIA opened like two weeks ago. Yeah. So we are talking potentially 30 to 40 people, if not more.

SPEAKER_05

Last year we had 65 signed up. It's just that 50 people came in.

SPEAKER_01

And clarify what OCIA is for people.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, the order of Christian initiation for adults. Um, it's the way that specifically in the United States, but more broadly, we bring people who are outside the church inside the church, right? And in the United States, that very much looks like a class as well as set rituals and liturgies that kind of bring them into the fullness of the faith.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_05

And most of this is well, it's all voluntary, correctly.

SPEAKER_04

This is everybody.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes, you can go through the entire process and the day, literally Holy Saturday, say, Hey, this is not for me. I'll go. Sweet. Katie's phone fell. That was awesome. Yeah. We're good, we're good, keep going. Katie, if you want to go fix your phone. Yeah. Yeah. The entire time. And I've had this happen before where you have people who are set to come into the church at Easter, and then the day before, they're like, I can't do it. Yeah. And then they come in two weeks later.

SPEAKER_04

That's awesome. Yeah, because um, well, we'll we'll I'll ask some some follow-up questions about OCI uh in just a little bit, but um that's awesome. And we uh we thank you for all your service because having lived in ministry, we know how hard it is to the, you know, it's definitely one of the um the unsung heroes of working at a church and in the faith. You know, everybody knows a lot about the priests and the and the bishops and the saints, but um there's so many ordinary people. You are extraordinary, but ordinary I'm boring as all get out. I'm ordinary. I'll take the ordinary. Yeah, true, true. Um but there's so many people who are just living their day-to-day lives, and they're the ones who are truly boots on the ground tending to the flock. Um, so thank you for for that.

SPEAKER_01

And I want to talk about the very interesting part about your life, which is your family. Yeah. Tell me a little bit just about your family, or just like a very quick who your family is, what you're about, and then we'll get into Peek and Pitts, because I know we're getting too excited here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Sweet. So I'm married to Lucy, who's just the best thing that ever happened to me. She's amazing. Um, my son, Natan, which is okay. My son has a fun name. It's Nataniel, that's his name. Yeah, it's just Spanish version of Nathaniel. Yeah. Um he's awesome. He's a menace, he's an absolute menace.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Um, but then he'll also do these things where he'll like sit on a bench for an hour. That's crazy. It's awesome. He'll just watch. He'll just watch. He's very that's yeah, that was that was me and that was my brother. Um and my wife doesn't know what to do with it. Because he's like, what's wrong with this kid?

SPEAKER_02

Okay, he's tearing into the mist.

SPEAKER_05

And then at the same time, he'll like beat our dog, like, which is terrible. But like, he's a two-year-old, so here we are.

SPEAKER_01

If MJ's just like staring off in the distance, I'm like, oh, she's pooping.

SPEAKER_05

Yep, yep, yep, that's awesome. It's the best. My son, literally yesterday, he was outside playing in the hose, like just going around, and then I hear daddy, daddy, daddy, and I turn around and he was holding up his diaper that was full of poop, and he was going, Daddy, daddy! Yes, he's great. Yep. Um, but yeah, she's from a large Catholic family from Cincinnati. Nice. I'm from a big Catholic family in Ohio in not in Ohio, in Florida. I was gonna say, you're Cuban. I'm Cuban, yes, very Cuban. Um, and then we met at Franciscan University, Steubenville, Ohio.

SPEAKER_04

Oh. Yeah, yeah. You must be the only couple that got married at Steubenville. Dude. Dude, dude. It's crazy. It's insane. Uh one of the things Katie and I always used to like joke about was we would have a lot of friends or people we knew who would go who in high school would go uh to Steubenville, and oftentimes like right before they're like, I'm gonna be on a dating fast. And I mean, it was like every single time they're like, Oh, yep, guess what? Like three months in, they're dating someone. Yeah, a dating fast. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05

Oh no.

SPEAKER_04

Uh yes.

SPEAKER_05

That hits way too close to home, actually. I forgot about that. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, man, that's what we're here for. We're we're here to hit you close to home, dude. Um, but yeah, so

Peaks And Pits Check-In

SPEAKER_04

we do, um, I think I mentioned this to you, we do our peaks and pits. So it's just like a little check-in because you know, it it starts out, you know, ultimately this podcast is for Katie and I is about our marriage and our lives, and life is busy, and oftentimes we find ourselves not actually saying, like, how was your week? Like, how are you know, I ask Katie all the time, how is she? Which I feel like sometimes is a different question than how are you?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And uh so this sometimes is a good way for us to check in, being like, Hey, what are you gonna remember about this week? Or what was what stood out to you this past week? And a lot of times it's not even spiritual related, it's just like, oh, I saw a really I had a really good day. I was able to like have a good dinner or something like that. Um, so we can start, and then if you want to go, just that way you kind of know what the what the vibe is. Are you ready to I have to start? Okay. Um I would say my peak was um July 4th. Um this past week we spent um half the week with Katie's family and half the week with my family. Um so I traveled for work, but Katie was off the entire week. So she just took MJ, and MJ got a bunch of grandparent time. Um, and then I would say of that time we got it was her first time in the lake. Um, and we grew up, like especially me, uh, on a lake house and going to the lake, and so putting MJ in the water and like watching her, she was not swimming, she had a floaty and everything, but like just watching her be excited getting in the water was like melting my heart. So I would say that's definitely my peak. My pit was for like three days straight, she woke up every two hours. And when she's sleeping in the same room as you, it's miserable.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, sleeping in the same room is rough when you've like already, I'm sure you know, transitioned to separate bedrooms. Oh yeah. It's like she knows, and it just didn't feel very nice. Like she just wanted to like bother us all night. But on the bright side though, she has been sleeping knock on wood through the night the past couple nights. So I'll take what I can get. Um uh pit for me, not neither of mine are gonna be serious because this is all I can think about. But I feel like sometimes the non-serious things are just as important. Okay, pit. Literally today, there was was there traffic on your way here, like construction going on as you like.

SPEAKER_05

I think the construction ended, like all the trucks were there, but like they were off to the side.

SPEAKER_01

So they didn't make you like pivot? No. I had to drive through that like five times today. What I had all those errands to run, and it just was chaotic, and they kept like pivoting traffic, and then I think I just I mean I wasn't really paying attention. I was going a little bit faster, I guess, than they would like. And um, this is just like the people pleaser in me that if somebody like reprimands me, I get really like sad and insecure about it.

SPEAKER_00

But one of the traffic guards was like, slow down, slow down, and I was like, Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to be a problem.

SPEAKER_01

But I felt so bad about it because I'm like, oh my gosh, like there's people here and I could have run over somebody and now they're mad at me, and now I and then I had to keep driving back and forth. So they I just felt like they remembered me. I just just really embarrassed about it. So that was my pit that happened today. My peak, but I told you it was funny. My peak last week, because we were out, like you said, I finished a whole book in a week. Like it just hasn't happened. And it was not like a spiritual book. There was no depth to it. It was such a creepy book. And here's the catch, which is honestly funny that I enjoyed it as much as I did. I chose it because I was like, I'm gonna be like my parents live on a farm. So it's very relaxing. Like you sit on the deck, you can like watch, and there's a bunch of like cowards.

SPEAKER_04

Not much to do other than sit on the deck.

SPEAKER_05

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01

And so I'm sitting there, I'm like, I want to read like a feel-good farmland, like type homesteading family-friendly book, which was like the premise, but then it like flop, it's called yesteryear. I don't know, it's like kind of popular. Never heard of it, but um, it like flips around flips around, I don't know, it it takes a turn, pivots, and it becomes like this really scary, toxic. Oh my because I was like talking to Joe about it. I'm like, oh my gosh, you won't believe what like the mom did, like she's crazy. And I'm like, this was not exactly what I like, I didn't think I needed to read something like this, but I think I did. Like, I just need a little bit of edginess in my life.

SPEAKER_00

So that that was my peaks and pits. I told you there was no substance to it, it was just good, and it was either bad.

SPEAKER_05

That's awesome. Um, let me see. Pit. Let's start with my pit. Um, so for 4th of July, we always visit my family. Yeah. Which was not the pit. Let's be clear, that's not the pit. But coming back was the pit. Did you drive? No, we flew. Okay. Which with a two-year-old hit or miss. Hit or miss, and it was fine. It was fine. The problem was is that in order to get to the airport on time, we had to get up at 3 a.m. Oh no. And I am drastically addicted to coffee. Yeah. Like, terribly so. Um, I'm an espresso fiend. Like, I need I just need that straight black goodness nectar of the gods in every single morning. Love that for you. Um, I need it, and I make good coffee, and I'm a little bit picky. Yeah, it is. As you should be. Yeah, yeah. Uh good thing I live in Greenville. Um good coffee. But 3 a.m. to the airport, that's you're not gonna get coffee. So I'm like, all right, wait. No, I know. At the airport, there's a Cuban cafe because it's Florida. So like I know there's gonna be Cuban espresso in the airport.

SPEAKER_04

In and out of Miami?

SPEAKER_05

Uh no, not Miami. We were in Orlando area. That's where my family is right now. But the Sanford Airport has a little Cuban cafe, Zazaz. Nice. But like, I know, I know they have good coffee there. So we get there. As soon as we get there, there's inordinately long lines. Oh no. And so what should have been like 10 minutes in, yeah, it took us like 30 minutes to 30, 40 minutes to get in. And so we had to run onto the air, onto the plane. We literally had to run there. And I'm like, oh no, no coffee. Like, what are we gonna what are we gonna do? So we get onto the plane, and we had poured out all of our water because he can't put any liquids on. Of course. And my son starts asking, it's like, Wawa. Oh no, wah, wawa. It's like 5:30, five, like 4.35. I don't know what time it is at this time. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. I don't have coffee, my son doesn't have water, my wife doesn't have coffee, we're in a plane, I don't like flying. This is just insane. And so we're getting into the air, and alright. That was it. That was it, that was the pit. Just no coffee, no water, is what it is. He slept fine. It was actually a great flight. There was nothing wrong with the flight.

SPEAKER_01

But to start off a trip like that, it can be a little bit like, oh no, how is the rest of this trip gonna go?

SPEAKER_05

Yes, but it didn't, and so it was good. I was very grateful, but that was definitely the worst part.

SPEAKER_04

And you're definitely not getting coffee, like when they come around for the beverage car, you're not getting coffee from there. Oh no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05

It was and this was Sunday morning, so we landed and we literally drove from the airport to Holy Mass at Seas. And I'm old school, so like I feel really uncon like conscious about wearing shorts to mass. Yeah, like it just I feel like my mom was gonna slap me, like that sort of thing. Yeah, and I was in shorts at mass, and I could like no one cares.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, no one cares, but you care, but I care.

SPEAKER_05

I'm like, don't look at my knees.

SPEAKER_04

Don't look at my knees. Not my knees. Modest is hottest. Don't look at my knees. That's right, of course.

SPEAKER_00

No one was looking at my face. They were talking about it.

SPEAKER_03

Oh no, I'm surprised they even gave you uh the Eucharist.

SPEAKER_05

I know, I can't believe it. I can't believe when Senior Brody didn't talk to me from the pulpit and say, you need to put pants on. Yeah, exactly. Man, put pants on. Yeah. Hey, representative of the church, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_04

That's such a bold move to go straight from the airport to mass. It was insane. Yeah, that's a great like to not give yourself even just a little bit, but you know, hey, that's it's uh this brings me to a different point, but you uh I think we'll appreciate this as well. Um, like we go on vacation a lot, Katie and I do, both of our families do. And when we tell people that we go to church on vacation, people are like, What? So often they're like, What do you like what do you mean you cover that? Or they're like, Oh, like what do you you didn't how do you know what church to go to? And I'm like, We're Catholic, we just go to whatever Catholic church is there. And it's just so funny to see like a lot of people we know who are very devout. The idea of like going to church on vacation is so crazy, but like that's a part of for us, that's a part of the fun is when you're on vacation going to another church. Yeah, like I don't know, you know, and like people would say, like, oh well, you were traveling all day, like that should supersede going to mass. No, but it's like it's the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_05

You have to go to holy mass. Yeah, it's actually wild. So I I know we'll get to this later, but like one of the things that's one of the biggest like hang not hang-ups, but difficulties for other Christians becoming Catholic is the difference in you have to do something. Like your life actually has to look a certain way, and like you have to go to Mass on Sunday. And part of it's this thing I realized this a couple years ago. Because Catholicism isn't a theology, it's a church. Yeah. Whereas most Protestant denominations, they're not churches, they're a theology. And so when your idea of God changes, or like when the way you fit the truths of the faith together changes, oh, you switch cher parishes, like you switch churches, and it's like not that big of a like it's a big deal, but it's not that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Because they're all they're all Christian, they're all baptism is the same, yada yada yada, everything. But Catholicism is not like that. We are one church with many theologies all within the same church. And so interesting.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. No, I love that. And I I I love that, and I think that's the So that opens us up to kind of I think what would be my first kind of question to you. Wait, one second. First off, my peak, your peak of court?

SPEAKER_05

My son saw an elephant. My son saw an elephant, and he can't say elephant. He just goes and it just like he keeps like pointing, going So was this something like he's like.

SPEAKER_01

My family lives in Orlando.

SPEAKER_05

We went to Animal Kingdom, he didn't know this was happening.

SPEAKER_01

But did he like had he been talking about elephants for a while? And like you were just excited to show him an elephant, or was it like, what is this creature? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05

He has an elephant-stuffed animal, and he'll like point to it and go, and like he can't say the word. It's apparently a complicated word, but he can make the sound, and he saw it in life, and he was like, it was amazing. That was that was my peak. It was it anyway. But sorry, go to the important things now. That was important. I had to get that out of the way.

SPEAKER_04

That's much more important than uh we so hang on, how was Disney with a two-year-old?

SPEAKER_05

Um, so I grew up going to Disney a lot because my family's currently in the Orlando area. Yeah. And so like there's really nothing to do for like kids other than Disney. Yeah, or sweat. Or sweat. Yeah. I grew up with sweating, so like I had no the beach store. Orlando's not really close to the beach. It's the only landlocked part of Florida. So it's actually like an hour and a half either way to the beach. It's not it's crazy. So I grew up being able to say, Oh, it's a Friday, and I was also homeschooled. So like we finished school early. Friday, I was like, oh yeah, what are we doing? Oh yeah, we'll go to Disney soon. It's fine. So we know how to do it. We know how to do it well. So it was great.

SPEAKER_04

That's good. Uh my this is just a small side story. My brother went with his two kids and his wife. Miserable. Um, well, and in my family, I want to go. My family is not a Disney. My parents went once and with my older siblings, and they were like, We're never taking you to Disney. Just want just get that, get that locked and loaded in your head. That's not happening. Very much. And um they I so I asked my brother, I was like, Hey, how was Disney for you? And he he responded, he said, It was great, we had a great time. Uh I think somebody will make a killing if they just open up a divorce proceedings court uh right outside of the right outside of the window.

Why People Are Becoming Catholic

SPEAKER_04

Uh and so I we just thought that was funny.

SPEAKER_05

That's so true.

SPEAKER_04

That's so true. It would just it would kill. It would do great. Yep. Um, but anyway, so back to like you were saying, the the the Catholicism. You were mentioning the the Catholic Church being um kind of that one one body with many theologies. Yes. Where what have you seen when people are coming into the church? Is that a big draw for them? What is the biggest draw that you're seeing? Like why why are people choosing not only to come either back to a faith or switch faiths, but why in particular is there one overarching reason that you feel like the Catholic faith, other than I'll uh remove the the cop out, I will say, of we believe we are the true faith, so of course they will come this is the faith they choose. Yeah. Um I know it's a broad question.

SPEAKER_05

No, it's a huge it's not just that it's a broad question, it's that it's a huge question because there's so many facets to it. Yeah. Um I think you sent me that in like a text or something akin to that. And I was like, if I'm gonna answer this, do you want me to answer like the supernatural? Natural reasons, or do you want me to answer like the sociological because there's social, like there is demographic reasons why people are becoming Catholic now at this point? Like it's it's wild. Like one of them is very this very simply, we're one of the last institutions that doesn't seem to be breaking down in some way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_04

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, absolutely. And it's not that the others have broken down, it's that they all if you're in them, they look like they're breaking down. And so, like rats running from a ship, and I don't mean to compare people to rats. That's not what I'm not the point. But the point is, is like, wait, all our sources of identity are gone. We move we're not around our families, our local cultures have been disintegrated. The institutional churches, whether it's Lutheran, Anglican, the Southern Baptist Convention, whatever. No one's going to a local library, no one knows who their mayor is. Who's our mayor? Mayor Knox, I believe.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, didn't he?

SPEAKER_05

Are we in Greenville, Simpsonville, Malden?

SPEAKER_04

We are technically in Greenville.

SPEAKER_05

So who's Mayor Knox? Mayor Knox, I've heard great things.

SPEAKER_04

No, he's been around for a minute.

SPEAKER_05

So exactly, my point. No one knows other than Joe Devine, God bless you.

SPEAKER_04

Um Greenville Today News or something like that.

SPEAKER_05

Um but as institutions collapse, or another one is like generally government. So like if you trust the US government, no one trusts the U.S. government anymore.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Like no one, no one. Um no one trusts your own. Exactly. Legacy media, no one trusts the news. Uh, no one trusts the school system. No one trust no one trusts any of the institutions that we used to like put some stock in.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And so the only one left are religions. Right. And amongst the religious institutions, Catholicism is actually doing better than it has in a long time. Yeah. Like institutionally. Like the diocese structure, the parish structure in the United States right now is maybe healthier than it's been in 70 years.

SPEAKER_01

As far as like involvement from the parish, is that how you're determining health?

SPEAKER_05

There's a couple different ways you determine health. There's um Catholics the Catholics going to church know their faith. So a great example of this. Uh a couple years ago, there's there was a Pew study that was done, and this was famous and kind of like broke brains, where it said that like 60% of Catholics didn't believe in the Eucharist, or like something along those lines. I'm bad with numbers. Well, what they did what was never really talked about in that study is that that's all self-identified Catholics. So that's that includes people that haven't been to church in 70 years.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, like, I mean, I'm sure coming from a Cuban culture too, you know a lot of people culturally that are like, well, I'm like I'm Filipino, so I'm Catholic.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, obviously.

SPEAKER_01

Like Mexican because so I'm not sure. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05

But they did another Pew study like a couple of years ago about people that are only going like they're following the precepts of the church. They're going to church every Sunday, holy days of obligation. It was some crazy number, like 99% believe in the true presence.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So the people that are actually going to church that on the ground are orthodox, faithful, believe in the true presence, love their priests. Um they're kind, they're just good people. Yeah. On the ground, we're doing great.

SPEAKER_04

Well, and and to follow up on your point with a lot of the reason that people are losing these faith in institutions, I feel like is because the people running the institutions also have no faith in the institution. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Or at least they're not giving any faith in the institution.

SPEAKER_04

Or they they're not buying into what the institution is is preaching, right? Like it and you know, uh you'll hear a lot of teachers complaining about the school system, right? So when the teachers are complaining about and and they have every right to, we try we completely understand that. But you know, it's just an example that when the teachers are complaining about the school system, that that only breeds less confidence in the institution. Whereas on the other side, if if you walk into a Catholic church and everybody that walks out, for the most part, is is seemingly happy, is understanding what's going on, and is believing in this institution, that is um that's very, very enticing to a world that does not have institutions. Yes. Uh yeah. Did you have another uh what's so that that's that's a sociological reason.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, that's a good point. I the fact that you the fact you said that there are two ways to um really so theological versus like demographic. I was like, that is why we asked John Mark to come here because that's not what my brain, like that's not how my brain thinks. I'm like, there's that it's amazing that there's like different categories that you can explain or elaborate on, like why people are coming into the church.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, I I we're in a perfect storm right now. Yeah, like we're in a perfect storm of people coming into the church because for the first time, and I would say in like 70 years, yeah, like in a long time, we're set to handle them. That's that's that is insane. Because frankly, I don't have to do a lot of job catechizing them really at all. Because the internet, frankly, it's the internet, yeah. Like the internet, like on online Catholic catechists, and you could argue about it's like, all right, online Catholic culture, is it healthy or not? You got these camps, you got the Trads over here, and you got the charismatic, you got Franciscan, you got like all of this. Of course, like which camp are you in? I don't know. Um, doesn't really matter, they're all doing a great job. Right, yeah. And as a result, there's something for everyone out there. They're reaching their community, they're reaching their community, and they're all coming in for different reasons and they're plugging them in. Yeah. You don't really I'm not gonna say you don't have a group of people that are convinced of Catholicism that are just online. I don't think that's the case. I think they've started going to church, and that's what we're seeing.

SPEAKER_04

Uh Reddit, they're not the most healthy of the.

SPEAKER_05

The good people of Reddit are wonderful. I love Reddit. Yeah, I love Reddit. God bless the good people of Reddit.

SPEAKER_04

The good people have Reddit.

SPEAKER_05

You heard it here, folks. Reddit is one of the things.

SPEAKER_04

You heard it here first from John Mark.

SPEAKER_05

I love Reddit.

SPEAKER_04

Reddit is amazing. Um so helpful. But you you look at Reddit and you you know you'll see people who are saying, like, oh, I'm going, you know, I'm going to go to a mass for the first time, and there's a lot of outpouring of support for that. It's just it's funny you say that because I think you're right. The um, you know, they're pushing people in the right direction. You know, whether they're putting uh butts in seats, in pews at church, and that is oftentimes more than most people will do in their lives. Um, and as somebody who has worked in evangelization, I'm sure you would agree with this that getting people in front of the Eucharist that's that beats anything else you can do. Amen. Right?

SPEAKER_05

Amen. Absolutely, absolutely. And the other well, just one more one more sociological reason. Um all the people who are half-hearted in the faith didn't come back after COVID. Interesting. Like they're just not here anymore.

SPEAKER_01

We've we've weaned them out.

SPEAKER_05

No, and I don't say that that's like it's necessarily a good thing because they need to be at church, they need to be in front of the Eucharist, they need to be like availing themselves of the graces that are present in the sacraments, but they're not here. Yeah, which means everyone left is fully bought in. Right, right. They're the ones that the second that the doors opened, we were back.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

We're the ones that never closed in South Carolina. God bless they really did it. Um but the the reality is that there was a sort of like purging that happened as a result of COVID. And so now the people that are coming into the church are experiencing a church that's thriving.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Like, yes, it's smaller, but Pope Benedict said this. He said the church is gonna get smaller, but a pure church will come out of it, and then it will blossom. And so he was very prophetic and exactly he didn't see COVID coming, but like he was right.

SPEAKER_01

He was right. Well, and COVID was like such a big reset for everybody mentally. Um, and like I don't know, even for myself, like that separation from like that community and that church made that or it it made that longing and that desire in my heart so much stronger. And so I feel like the people that are there, like you're saying, are just appreciating it so much more because they know what it was like to not have it.

SPEAKER_05

We remember fasting from the Eucharist for years.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

In some place years, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's and it's crazy, you know, like people will choose not to receive the Eucharist because, like, oh, I'm on vacation, why would I? But when you are told you can't for weeks on end, it's like, oh, I need this. I need this just as much as I need to breathe, I need to eat, I need to drink. Like, I need the Eucharist inside of me in my heart. So, anyways, great point. Did you have anything else you wanted to add before I switched?

SPEAKER_05

There's there's so many, but like those are social, two, those are two social reasons, but there's so many of them.

SPEAKER_01

Did we talk about demographical stuff too? That is demographic.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it's all it's all related. Oh, actually, here's one. Here's one.

Gen Z And The Catholic Aesthetic

SPEAKER_05

Gen Z. God bless Gen Z. Are you all millennials or Gen Z?

SPEAKER_04

Uh you're Gen Z. I'm t I'm like the last board. Like I'm 97.

SPEAKER_05

97. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Where does Gen Z end?

SPEAKER_05

Uh I I do the loose on a generation thing where it's like, all right, maybe 99, maybe 97. There's a weird like middle brass. Depends on who you hang out with at that point. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

There's like a really weird subset of people. I think if you were born from like 95 to 99, you're not really a millennial. You grew up with like millennial media, I would say, but you're not really a millennial. Whereas you're also not like we grew up without cell phones. In the sense that like we did not have screens in front of us 24-7. It was a TV or a video game or a Game Boy, but it wasn't the phone, the iPad.

SPEAKER_05

It wasn't smart technology.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it wasn't smart technology. But we also were much more a we were much younger than somebody who was, you know, of you know, who was in college when Facebook came out. Like I was in middle school. I remember instant messaging girls on Facebook when I was in middle school being like, this is this line's gonna be the one that that does it, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Did anyone ever email people like aim? No, just like Gmail. Like I would just Gmail. Yes.

SPEAKER_05

I would do that too. Yeah. We would just sit, like I would just wait. Were you a Google Plus person?

SPEAKER_01

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05

Okay, good.

unknown

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_05

I was for a brief moment. It was a dark period. Dark period.

SPEAKER_01

I was like, I had I had a Gmail, an AOL, a Yahoo, like to just message different friends. That's crazy. I know.

SPEAKER_05

Dark days. But that's uh the reason I bring Gen Z Gen Z is the first generation to grow up with image technology. Yeah, like it's smart image technology all the time. And the reason why that's important is because one of the way this is a Father Benedict Rochelle thing. Father Benedict Rochelle, God bless him. He's one of the founders of the um uh Friars of the Renewal. They're based in New York, they're super cool, Franciscans. Barefoot, sleep on the floor, they're awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Um not for me.

SPEAKER_05

They're amazing, they're amazing. Francis again, he's super cool. But besides the point, his big thing was that the um uh God speaks to different people to all people, but to people in three primarily different ways that correspond to the three transcendentals truth, goodness, and beauty. Right? So you might be a truth person. It's like, oh my gosh, the truths of the faith. Wow, it's so cool how theology works and everything. Um or the goodness is like, wow, Mother Teresa, all the good works that the church is doing, that sort of thing. But then there's also the beauty of the church. Oh yeah. That's not just the artwork, but the like was it, Aquinas says that beauty is the manifestation of the good. It's what the good looks like.

SPEAKER_04

It's the I would almost say it's the mysticism.

SPEAKER_05

It's the I see it and I know that it's good. I see it, I see it, I see it, I see it. For the first time, not really ah sort of for the first time. Um, the Catholic vibe is everywhere.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The Catholic vibe. You can see what a cathedral looks like. Yes.

SPEAKER_05

Like, and it's not just a picture, but you can actually see a video of like Chartre Cathedral or Notre Dame, or you can see like the beauty of a veil, or you can see the beauty fit chalice, or you can see the beauty, just the beautiful things of the church, and all the people that were not being served by because we have ugly churches in the United States compared to Europe. That's just that's just how that works. Um, they saw for the first time it's like, wait, this is what Catholicism does after a couple thousand years.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And that's what started the ball rolling.

SPEAKER_04

One of the things what's interesting too, you see um people are talking about how much of a comeback physical media is having in the last couple years. You know, people who are buying DVDs or they want trading cards or vinyl is back. Yeah, vinyl, like people are s are searching for these physical media, you these tangible things that show you, hey, this is a representation of who I am. And I mean, dude, ain't nobody been better at giving people tangible things than the Catholic Church for like ever. Here's my Bible, here's this Catholic journal, here's my manual of prayers, here's my Liturgy of the Hours, here's my rosary, here's my pocket rosary, here's my scapula.

SPEAKER_05

It's beautiful. It's not just the cheap plastic rosary anymore. It's like, no, we have like people that are making gorgeous rosaries that feel like this could be a hundred years old, yes, and in a hundred years still doing good. And the reason why that's important is because now you have people, beauty people are being served, ministered to, truth people are being ministered to because Catholic content is everywhere, yeah, theology, everything. And Catholics are doing good works everywhere. Yeah, so all the different types of people are getting ministered to or like evangelized in the way that's proper to them immediately.

SPEAKER_01

That's a good point. That is, and I do see that in a classic me, not knowing like the name or the like I'm trying to explain like this era that social media is going through right now, and I think they call it like analog living or something like that. Is that right? Okay, yeah, but people are just wanting to live like the olden days, like they're wanting like the flip phones and like the the the maybe not the like 20 the the olden days, the flip phones you know what I'm saying though. Like like reading like real books and like just this like older, slower paced lifestyle and living. I just feel like that's unfortunately like it is a trend, but I do feel like that's what hooks people back into it and like gets people's attention.

SPEAKER_05

Trends are a good thing, and it's a start, it's not enough to like model a life off of but for not the first time, but we're at a perfect place to take advantage of the trend.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yes, yes, yes, like lean into it. I saw this video um the other day, and it was this influencer that I follow that I really like enjoy her content. She's just like a mom, but that's really all she talks about is being a mom. But then she posted a video and she was like, Oh, well, since it's cool to be Catholic again, like I guess I'll just let everyone know. I'm Catholic, I've been a cradle Catholic my whole life, raised my kids Catholic, and it's funny because I mean she's been an influencer for a while, but just now is like because it's she's like it's cool to be Catholic again. So, like, let's like all the closeted Catholics come out of wherever you are hiding, like we're everywhere, which is so awesome. We are everywhere, a lot of people hiding still, but they're coming out, they

Truth, Goodness, Beauty In Faith

SPEAKER_01

will. But I like that you brought up um truth, beauty, and goodness, which is actually the next question kind of that I wanted to ask you. Is our generic question was like, what made you fall in love with being Catholic? But now I kind of want to go deeper and be like, of those three, what where do you fall? And like, how does that you know categorize under why you love being Catholic?

SPEAKER_05

That's a good question. Um got him. Yeah, you got him. Well done. Well done, sweet. So ironic uh Joe, I've known you a long time. Yeah, I'm actually not a truth person. Yeah, I would believe I actually would believe that. Yeah, I love the truths, yeah. I love the truths of the faith, I love theology, I love reading, I'm a super nerd, like all that fun stuff. Um, but I'm very much a beauty person. Yeah, very much a beauty person. I need to see, I'm very sight-oriented. Um so for me, one of the like hooks when I was a kid was actually seeing the Eucharist in a beautiful monsters.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, or like um in Miami, there's this beautiful church, um, little flower, it's in coral gables, and it's old school. It's got purple marble, which is a thing- Purple marble, purple marble, it's awesome. They got the old school great stonework, metal work, it's gorgeous. Yeah, and in my mind, it's like, no, this is what the church looks like because it's an image of heaven, and heaven's beautiful, yeah. Right? And if it's beautiful, that means it's good. Yeah, and if it's good, I can lean into it, and if it's good, then it's true, and so I can know it. And so it like keeps spiraler spiraling that way.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Um well, I think that's what's beautiful about them is that they all lead into if something is true, then it must be good, and if it's good, it must be beautiful. If it's good, it it could be beautiful, and if it's you know, it they all flow into themselves.

SPEAKER_05

Three in one, baby. Yeah, the Trinity is printed everywhere. It it is boo.

SPEAKER_04

No, I mean that's that's a great question, honestly. And is so would you say that the the beauty of the church is what also called you to want to evangelize to it, or was there an um like a more pivotal moment, or do you have a moment where you're like, oh, this is why I decided I wanted to get into kind of the mess of the church? Because we all we know that it's also there is that side of it of like, okay, when you decide, hey, I'm going to evangelize, I'm going to be in ministry, you it means you're gonna get dirty, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

You know, yeah. The engine room. Yeah, you don't go in the engine into the engine room and don't get burned. Yeah, of course. Um, so I come from a ministry family. Yeah. Um mama was a DRE for a long time. My brother did uh some DRE work. I actually don't know exactly what, but he also worked on Skid Row for a hot sec. So like literally working with homeless people, yeah. Super cool. Um, it's awesome because his normal face is like a stoner face. He's not a stoner, but he has a stoner face, so fit in great. Yeah, um they're like, we can trust this guy. Yeah. Um, my parents met at Franciscan, like the faith was always like a big deal. My dad tried to be a priest like 13 different times. Good, nice, classic. They've been doing OCIA since I was a kid, catechesis. Like, we've we've always been like You grew up in it. We grew up in ministry, um, it's just how things work. Um, so when I was going to get a job, it was just a natural, oh, this is actually something I know how to do. Yeah. Um, but the the mess of evangelization, that's a little bit different, right? Because I can't not like like it's just a matter of like I don't have the option not to if I want to follow Christ. So, like a great example of it, this is Lives of the Saints. I'm a big saint guy, I love stories, saint stories, and my I think one of my favorite saint stories actually has to do with um these unnamed saints in southern India during the time of uh Saint Francis Xavier. So when Saint Francis when Saint Francis Xavier You got it. I can speak English, nailed it, nailed it. I can I can speak English uh when he started evangelizing the different um peoples off the coast of India on the little islands, um, they would convert and then he would leave to go to the next island or like wherever, and then they would like fall back into their paganism, right? And he would go back and say, Oh, you okay, come on, come on, come back, and then they would all come back super easily. Like they didn't put up much of a fuss. He would leave and then they would fall back into their paganism, and he'd have to go, okay, let's deal with this again. He'd have to do this a bunch of times. Um, and then there was this uh tribe marauding band, is it pirates basically of uh a Muslim horde, actually, Pakistanis that came down to their island and they went to the islanders who, mind you, are bad Catholics, they're bad at being Catholics. Literally, every time Francis Xavier leaves, they switch back into paganism. And they tell me, It's like, look, you guys need to renounce your faith and become Muslim, otherwise, we're gonna kill you. And their response was the moms held up their infant children and said, Remember, they're Catholics too.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_05

And I I I'm very blessed. I'm in the United States. I'm not gonna die for my faith, I don't think. We're probably not gonna come into contact with a Muslim whore that's gonna like slaughter us. I'm not gonna have to hold up my two-year-old son and say, Remember, he's a Catholic too. Yeah, um, but that's what Catholicism looks like. Yeah, like that's actually what happens when bad Catholics are half to like defend their faith. It's like we don't. Yeah, we have to. Yeah, we have to. No, I'm so martyrdom. That's the witness that's like required of us. That's what confirmation instills in us. It's the wit the ability, the grace necessary to witness to Christ, which is martyrdom. It's that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, and I think that in a way, you know, I agree with you. I don't think either of us are gonna have a a sword to our throat saying renounce your faith. But we are called to, and I think you and I have talked about this before, you're called to die for your faith in a different way here. You know, you you are called to be unafraid in the way that you live your faith. Um and I I know that's another thing we've mentioned quite a bit a lot, but I it's just on the top of my mind constantly because uh our faith is is meant to be lived and it's meant to be seen in how we live. I think you even mentioned that um earlier that you know we we should be able to radiate that Catholicism when people see us, and especially when they come into our church. Yes. They should see that it's excitement that joy that we have and that in itself while it does oftentimes require speaking it does require words he didn't say he didn't say that uh and it oftentimes does require words you should be giving off that vibe and I think a lot about I think it's Hebrews 12 um and I could be wrong about that but when he says you know always be prepared to give an answer for the the faith and the joy that you have and the um and that's what I think that evangelism that you know evangelization when you say you have to that's that's how I take that because it's it's a way of your life if you truly believe this if you truly believe it then you will live it and in living it it will it will just be what you do because that is what you believe.

SPEAKER_01

Oh we well I was gonna say you've told me this and I think about this all the time about um like an atheist speaking to like a very strong Christian whoever and it's like okay if this is really what you believe like why are you not trying to convince me it because the way like what you were telling me sounds good but you're not telling me that this is like important as in like addressing a lot of those lukewarm people who don't yeah like do you actually want me to go to hell if that's real. Do you want that for me? Why aren't you trying harder? And it's just funny like I feel like it's really convicting coming from somebody who truly is confident about their disbelief in God. It's like well you're not convincing me so why would I?

SPEAKER_04

But it and it's hard too because then you get in the we also believe that it's the most effective way to minister to someone is not to stand on a

Evangelization When It Feels Awkward

SPEAKER_04

on a sidewalk corner.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah because it actually doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah exactly because you're well because you're also not in my eyes you're not actually caring about the person you're trying to convert because oftentimes we are not to we are not called to convert the masses we are called to convert you know go for the one. We are called to convert that one person in our lives and I think that you know sometimes sure maybe we are you know hopefully we would convert as many people as we come into contact to but I I really do believe that oftentimes there's it's a much smaller group of people that we're really called to to truly minister to in the same way that that you know Jesus had the disciples and I think that that's the best way you can truly minister to people is in those smaller communities, right? Like and I'd be interested your take on this because you have so many people that you are probably considered a this is going to be a strong word but I can't think of a better one you are a beacon to a lot of people that you are probably Lord have mercy. I know Lord have mercy I know but but right for a lot of these people that you are the leading the OCIA for them you are this beacon of coming home to the church. But uh and while you I know you because you are a good person you would be there for them you are not going to be in this person's life day to day there is someone hopefully who is a catechist for them or a catalyst excuse me for them to come into the faith and that person is the one who is walking with them in that journey.

SPEAKER_05

You are a factor in their journey but you might not be the one necessarily keeping it alive for a lot of these people would you agree with that do you disagree what are your thoughts I see you thinking through it yeah because we're in a complicated situation right now and the internet has made it so yeah because I get a lot of people and you'd be amazed at how many people I get that have never met a Catholic before really they come into my office they and they well they sent me an email and say hey um in I have a few questions about Catholicism could I like meet with someone I'm like sure this is my job. So we set up a meeting and like we start talking and it comes up they have never met a Catholic they've never been to a Catholic church they've never been to a mass they've never seen someone that they knew was Catholic not once but the internet is everywhere and frankly Catholics are doing better than any other institution at being in the internet yeah um and so they they're coming to me through the internet interesting and it's a huge number or percentage I should say number is the wrong word but like percentage so for some of them the big challenge is actually getting them in contact with a person. With a person I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Yeah yeah because the internet is not a person the internet cannot witness it cannot be martyred it cannot give the faith the faith is passed on and the internet cannot do that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah interesting so I see what you what your uh what your kind of counter to my point is is that uh sometimes we do have to go out and find these people because they don't have anyone yeah so how how could we do that? I mean I I don't even know I don't know and it's not about Jesus.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah I guess it's no it's the craziest so I I used to do pub ministry in Ireland. Yeah fun thing that sounds awesome it's awesome literally you get to drink with Irishmen talk to them about Jesus and the thing is is that if Christ is on the mind Christ comes up when you're talking to people yeah so you actually don't have to do this weird proselytization thing. Yeah like what is Jesus to you like you don't you don't have to do are you go do you think you're going to heaven or hell yeah it's like no you don't have to do that you don't have to guilt people into the church. That's not no no no no no no but if you're considering Christ if you're thinking on what's good and true and beautiful Christ comes up but I guess so my qu sorry go ahead finish. And the thing is is that we don't talk to people and as a result we don't talk to them about Christ. So for example airports are a great example no one in the airport is talking anymore. I used to have great conversations in the airport with random people because they weren't on their phones. People are headphones phones whatever except when they don't have their headphones in and when they don't have their phones in you start talking to them and very very quickly the conversation turns to Christ because that's what everyone's thinking about right now. Interesting. It's so random I was talking this guy at the in the airport on the way to Florida Andy pray for Andy we'll pray for Andy we started talking about Jesus in like five minutes it was awesome. Dandy's like get me out of here Andy brought it up everyone's thinking about Jesus right now. Yeah they just don't know him.

SPEAKER_04

Well and especially I would say you in particular are in a when you meet someone often oh what do you do?

SPEAKER_05

Right and so he didn't know until the He didn't know until the end?

SPEAKER_04

That's awesome. Okay. Man I can't see I can never beat him. I can never beat him because I was gonna say that's you know you're in that position where oftentimes when you when you do first meet someone they can that can be a point of of like oh well that's it's funny you say that or whatever. But no I I I agree with you on that point that I do think we are called to again oh Katie has something. Will you finish up like again we do need to provide that witness and I think that you're right I think people are hungry for it and again if you are living a true faith it will just be a part of when you talk to someone and you say oh we're going to church on Sunday or when you say oh you know we it will just come out because it is yeah it is a part of who you are and how you're living your life.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah and also and I'm gonna say this and I don't want people to be guilted by it but it is something that like needs to be said there will people that will go to hell if we don't like my I am my brother's keeper. Their salvation does depend on me being a saint to the degree that I am not a saint people will burn.

SPEAKER_04

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_05

And it's that's not a scrupulosity point that's not a guilt point that's not it's like no it's just a fact of the matter that like lives are on the line.

SPEAKER_04

It should be motivating in the same way that I don't it should be motivating in the same way that I don't want to go wake up when I have to travel at 445 in the morning for work but I want to get paid. Yes. And that's again a utilitarian way of thinking about it but that's that's kind of the point where you're coming from is it's not that's just the fact. Like if you want to get into heaven and if you want to try and save souls you have to put in the work for it. Yes. You know? Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Well and I would challenge like I'm challenging myself by saying this as well like do you like I would challenge people listening who like feel that in their gut like ooh I don't like the way I feel when someone says that to me. Because I like I felt some type of way just even hearing you say that because I think hell is a scary thing and we don't like to talk about it. It's terrible instead of talking about it we avoid it and then by avoiding it we avoid our duties as a Christian to evangelize like you said. And I would say I'm guilty of not wanting to talk about Jesus not not like avoiding it but just not bringing it up or like not wanting to have an uncomfortable conversation with somebody about it. Actually most particularly people who are like Catholics but not Catholic because I'm like I don't really know how to approach this topic with you. It's so much easier with somebody who like doesn't know it at all because they're interested in a sense but people who are like kind of bitter with the church I don't like I feel uncomfortable because I don't want to make them uncomfortable but those are the people that matter the most right like my witness is just as important to them. And so I honestly speaking like I just feel uncomfortable and I'm sure that people feel that same way and it's like how do we get past that and I guess sorry I never actually said my challenge my challenge is do you actually believe the reality like of what you are practicing? And I feel like sometimes I don't allow myself to go to that depth because it's scary. Yeah and it's uncomfortable. So I guess as somebody who's very confident in that belief and like does this for a living like what would you say to people who feel that type of way who are hesitant to have those conversations who are scared of the reality of like hell and you know not quite understanding the reality of heaven.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What would you say to people like that?

SPEAKER_05

To the people that are afraid of evangelizing like that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah or just like the hesitancy the maybe like the lack of like confidence in their ability to do it.

SPEAKER_05

I don't know if that's phrase right but yeah two things. First courage is the virtue of doing the good the right thing when you don't want to when it's hard yeah right that's it it's and it's we're not gonna want to it's hard it's being courageous unless you're afraid. Exactly that's a prerequisite right so that's the first thing that uneasiness is like no we just need to push through it like in that aspect right in that aspect. The other thing is you actually don't need to know anything because you don't need to know anything anything and anything anything and emphasize you do not you don't need to be a theologian you don't need to be a catechist you don't need to know the suma you don't need to know who Thomas Aquinas is you don't need to know who St. August you don't need to know you're right yeah why because the Catholic Church is not a theology it is not something to be taught the Catholic Church is a church right it is the body of Christ which is passed on and it grows organically yes you are not a good mom because you know how to be a good mom. You're a good mom because you are a mom.

SPEAKER_01

Oh that's so good.

SPEAKER_05

I needed to hear that you just are right and same thing with dad you just need to be a dad yeah like presence.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah for sure right well and I think about actually what clicked in my brain when you said that back to the truth and beauty. I think what's intimidating for me and maybe other people relate to this is I find evangelizing to be a lot of truth at least in my experience like I'm around people that are really good at like explaining what we believe or explaining you know why we do what we do and I am insecure about that because I don't have a lot of confidence in my theology background. Like I couldn't tell you that the way that you categorize things I'm like wait a minute I do like the beauty and like that is what I can lean into and I feel like that's gonna click for a lot of people because it really didn't click for me until now.

SPEAKER_04

Well and I think for us in particular a lot of the people that we speak to about the Catholic faith are Protestant and to your point Protestantism is a theology where it's a search for truth. So the truth is what's really important whereas a lot of the people that you have who are walking into your door who've never heard of a Catholic or seen a Catholic it's probably some of the goodness andor the beauty that is drawing them in because they don't care. Like they have no concept of what's true or not. They don't know they just think wow that

Police, Death, And Catholic Hope

SPEAKER_04

building is pretty or this there there seems to be just a general aura of happiness when people walk out of mass at it you know it's oh here's a good one.

SPEAKER_05

Here's a story. So the police department and the fire department are all converting that this is a fun thing that's so cool so for example like in the last few years I've had like 20 police officers and like fire like I just the fire department and the police department are like in Catholic incubators at this point. Either through our Lady of the Rosary or St. Mary's or Prince of Peace or like they're they're just everywhere. And it's great because I love talking to police officers about the faith because they're very no nonsense and very much the reason why they're coming to the church is because they see death and they're like Catholics reckon with death every day. Yeah and so they go to Catholic funerals and they see Catholics mourn and we pray for the dead and they're like that's real. I don't know anything about this but what they're doing is real.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah and so I have this one guy in mind he's he's going through the process he's super cool and he's straight up like the second you start explaining stuff to him his eyes glaze over he's like I don't get this he was like but it's real it's real it's awesome I love this guy he's my favorite kind of convert yeah well he's like yeah this sounds good man I'm here for it I don't yeah I don't care man I don't care I'm here well and I but I think that's that goes back to there's a key it it we believe it and that's it's not that we know it's not that it's a fact it is we believe it and I think that that is something that a lot of people have a really hard time with that at a certain point you are we are just called to believe it. Yes and you can you can use every one of your five senses till you're blue in the face you're going to have to reckon with the fact that you have to make a conscious choice to just say I'm going to believe this.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

And you know a part of it from a lot of the people that we have talked to and kind of evangelized to in our life one of the things we come back to is just take general stock of the people in your life who looks the happiest and the most fulfilled and seems most at peace with where they are in life what are those people doing well have you considered doing what those people are doing because 99% of the time at worst case scenario it's somebody of faith and most of the time it's going to be somebody who's devoutly believing and living their faith. Those are the people who aren't complaining about all the world around them. Those are the people who are good those are the people who are nice and I think if we did a better job of just saying hey I don't need to know why I can just believe we would we would lose that control that we're fighting over for so much. You know we we view ourselves as being as as I'm gonna use the word enslaving ourselves to the will of God is a bad thing is I'm losing my freedom but in reality what you're actually doing is you're allowing yourself to live a life full of more joy than you could ask you know ever possibly imagine. We were just talking I was talking with your dad before he left today that I think that there's um if we all just lived saying hey I'm gonna do what I think is best for other people we would live the happiest life we could possibly imagine if everyone lived that way and that there's um you know just this idea that if you follow the faith you're going to have to sacrifice your earthly happiness. And while I think it is true that you will be called to make sacrifices and that it will be hard oftentimes God's instructions for us are not just instructions to get into heaven they're instructions to live a better life on earth and that's just such a you know that's such a hard concept for people to think like what do you mean I can't you know uh you know drink all the time and I I can't look at pornography or whatever you know they're like what do you mean you have all these rules in place like these rules are in place again it's not just to so that you can get into heaven and be in greater communion with God. You will experience true benefit in your day-to-day life if you do this and you commit to it but yes people are scared because they think that hey in in committing to something I lose out on my on that what if you know that's Satan one of Satan's greatest tools is what if you know but was that I think I think about this before I was married like I could have potentially married anyone.

SPEAKER_01

Yes yeah and the fact that I married one person my wife Lucy who's the best the absolute best she's amazing stunning she really is she yeah she's great she's awesome she is she's great she's so cool much smarter than I am um but because I married her I didn't marry every other woman in the world yeah that's just crazy I think I rejected every woman in the world yeah because I married one woman that's awesome to think about I know right she's awesome no one else can have her no that's right that's right well and and you know again that's jealous love it is it is the Lord says it is um John Mark this was great yeah um this was great have a marriage meeting I'm gonna throw I'm no I'm gonna throw it on us sorry you were not prepared for this it's an easy one um but I came up with this little roots and fruits segment this is gonna be our marriage meeting so I want to I want this to be specific about your life

Roots And Fruits: Walking Together

SPEAKER_01

so roots like what are where are the roots in your life right now like what is keeping you and Lucy and Nathaniel rooted and whatever like you can take that and run.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah and then fruit where are you seeing the fruit of whatever this is yeah he has a he has a he ate an apple today that he saw I mean that could be literally played the world is your oyster you don't you don't have to be deep about it very we walk a lot okay we walk a lot yeah like a lot a lot like a lot like a lot I can see it in your calves and we oh well thank you very much um no and the reason why that's important is because like I'm very busy my wife is very busy um like she's like taking care of my son all day and then also she's a therapist and like caring for people's inner lives which is insane and I'm working at the church and at the orchard and I teach and like I do all these things but like every day we walk and as we walk we talk not about anything important but we're like walking yeah and there's this cool thing of I don't know if you know like etymology I do because I'm a nerd and like the um uh word pedagogy which is how you learn things right the way it comes from the word pede which is feet right is because the original Greek teachers they walk and that's how you learn like as human beings when you work through difficult questions it's best to do it while you're walking because it shuts down the part of your brain that doesn't think you're doing something so the wheels aren't just spinning you're actually moving. Yeah which part of the reason why Catholic pilgrimages are walking pilgrimages. That's like the Camino like you walk yeah and so we don't have to be working through something to just walk and if we are working through something we can just walk. Yeah if we're just talking we can walk yeah and it's actually productive yeah which I love walking I love walking it's so good also we have a dog and so we have to and my son is obsessed with being on walks walk walk walk that's amazing um and I think the fruit of that is like we're together yeah which is really important and the fruit of that is my son is really happy.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah amazing I love that yeah well and I mean even that's an amazing thing we we live in a you know a pretty active neighborhood and like just you know I can kind of see out the window so many families just all walking together and I think you're that's an awesome thing to be rooted in.

SPEAKER_01

I love like I just love the way you describe that that's amazing. I'm like why do I love walking so much? You told me why thank you Dr.

SPEAKER_05

Arthur Brooks he has a whole bit on it. I love Dr.

SPEAKER_01

Arthur Brooks to look into that he's super cool now you have to walk with me Joe Joe will like last like a mile and he's like alright can we turn around it's because he wears flip flops like who can walk longer than a mile in flip flops tevas get those straps. Right Jesus sandals well John Mark this was so fun and I really needed to hear a lot of the things that you've had to share and it just really reinforced that like we need to have more guests. Like I need to hear from other people like we're in a very and I'm sure you can relate we are in a season of like acquiring skills and knowledge. Like the season that we've left was a lot of reflecting on our marriage reflecting on dating and all these things that we've gone through and now we're going through a whole new season of life and like acquiring skills. And so obviously we don't have like experience in certain things so it's so fun to like hear from different people and different experiences and like I mean a totally different background like it's just really awesome. So thank you for chatting with us.

SPEAKER_04

Thanks for inviting me I really appreciate it. Yeah. All right well that's it right yeah we we didn't actually tell her about we're sorry oh uh I no that's the one thing I forgot yeah Katie whispers it into the mic like she's not it's not clearly being caught up in the microphone. The the thing we say is um let's keep growing together.

SPEAKER_05

Are you ready?

SPEAKER_04

How cheesy I know I know okay thank you guys for listening and

Closing: Let’s Keep Growing Together

SPEAKER_04

let's keep growing together by y'all