The Vine with Joe & Katie Devine
As branches of the same divine Vine, we embrace the power of community and the guidance of faith, aiming to inspire and uplift our listeners as we collectively journey toward greater understanding and connection. Welcome to a space where vulnerability meets wisdom and where, together, we discover the beauty of being intertwined in the vine of life.
The Vine with Joe & Katie Devine
Waiting vs Hoping: Our Fertility Journey
Have you ever found yourself caught between hope and waiting, wondering how to share your struggles without feeling vulnerable? Join us on "The Vine" as we explore this emotional landscape with honesty and courage. This week, we kick things off with our "peak and pit" segment, sharing personal tales from the candy-strewn streets of Greenville to the communal joy of youth group retreats. With laughter and a touch of tummy troubles, we invite you to reflect on the highs and lows that make up the tapestry of our lives.
Our conversation takes a more poignant turn as we open up about the journey of coping with infertility, emphasizing the power of vulnerability and the need for honest dialogue. It's a topic that touches many, yet is often shrouded in silence. We navigate the fear of having our experiences minimized and highlight the transformative power of sharing our stories with those who truly understand. Inspired by spiritual guidance, we reach out with empathy, hoping to connect with listeners on similar paths and reassure them that their feelings are valid and they are not alone.
In our final segment, we unpack the power of hope and trust when facing life's uncertainties. Together, we explore the delicate balance between waiting and hoping, the struggle with control, and the solace found in faith and prayer. Reflecting on the wisdom of St. Pope John Paul II, we encourage embracing every challenge with courage and hope, no matter how daunting it may seem. Join us for a heartfelt journey that promises to lift your spirit and inspire you to face your own challenges with renewed strength and faith.
An exclusive from Dery Media Podcasts. Explore diverse perspectives and enrich your knowledge at derymedia.com. Telling stories that matter, sparking meaningful discussions.
Hello world, hello everyone. I'm Joe Devine.
Katie:And I'm Katie, and welcome to the Vine.
Joe:Yeah, welcome back everybody.
Katie:Joe never knows what I'm going to say and. I'm running out of things to start off with. You know.
Joe:I don't know if I've said this before, so if I have, please excuse me. It really just reminds me of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory when Johnny. Depp, the new one. When, Johnny Depp, they have their big grand opening ceremony and it kind of goes really bad. And then he goes and starts like uh, starts talking to all the kids and everybody and he goes good morning, starshine. The earth says hello and I feel like that is you every time you start the podcast.
Joe:Oh, I hope I'm a little bit cooler than him hey, yeah, actually, yeah, I was gonna say, johnny Depp is cool but Johnny Depp isn't cool. The characters he plays is cool, like I love Jack Sparrow.
Katie:Well, anyways, welcome back to another episode. Another day, another Vine.
Joe:That's another Vine. See, there it is again just.
Katie:Another random thing.
Joe:Katie's. Like I'm gonna make it work, like we're gonna make it work. Fetch won't happen. Gretch Wait, what's her name? Gretchen, yeah, gretch, wait, what's her name? Gretchen, yeah, gretchen, yeah, joe are you ready?
Katie:I'm going to throw something else at you.
Joe:Okay, I'm ready.
Katie:But this one you should be prepared for.
Joe:Okay.
Katie:Instead of the how are you's? I like the peek and pit. What do you think?
Joe:I think you really like peek and pit all right, so we're doing peak and pit.
Katie:Yeah, let's do it, let's dive in. All right, you go first. Um, okay, my peak is this weekend. Your family came your siblings, your brother, your sister and their families and your parents came. So it was just fun to like, entertain the fam and show them a piece of our heart. Our little city, greenville, south carolina it was awesome um, so that was super fun. Uh, that was definitely my peak, my pit.
Joe:We spent like 30 minutes in a candy store. With how many were there?
Katie:10 yeah, I guess there were 10 children oh yeah, and it was five kids it was.
Joe:It was amazing and very chaotic. I mean, if like we've all heard the saying before right, Like a kid in the candy store. But I feel like until you actually watch a group of eight and nine and ten year olds walk through a candy store, that has all sorts of nonsense. It's like a huge decision.
Katie:Yeah, I didn't realize it until, like, I was there witnessing it firsthand.
Joe:One thing I thought that was really funny was their rule before they went into the candy shop was you can get one thing, and a couple of the kids tried to get real smart and get like a little mystery boxes. Yeah, these like 80 mystery boxes that had like a ton of candy in it. And that was just really funny to me, because I love when kids I don't want to say outsmart adults, but like I just or just act smart yeah I just love when kids kind of like you know, kind of needle adults a little bit.
Joe:I just think it's really funny because I feel like I was that way as a kid.
Katie:Yeah, so that was definitely my peak. My pit was literally like a pit in my stomach. The past couple of days I've had some major tummy issues.
Joe:Oh no, you know, I do know. Don't act surprised. I'm just. I'm trying to be the voice of the listeners.
Katie:And we don't know what's going on with me. But it's actually at this point it's like my new normal, like I'll just randomly.
Joe:You just my new normal, like I'll just randomly you just I wanted to get katie the shirt.
Katie:It said it was like big like almost comic, sans font it just said tummy hurt.
Joe:Yeah, my tummy hurt. I know I wanted to get but you know what?
Katie:you were the king of tummy hurt because I didn't have tummy issues until we got married I know I'm the problem.
Joe:I'm the problem.
Katie:Yeah, anyways, your turn.
Joe:Ooh, my turn. That's a good peek in a pit. That's a really good peek in pit, I would say so. I mean, obviously my family visiting Greenville is awesome. We're convincing them to move here, maybe one day. But I would say other than that, yesterday, at time of recording, we had our first youth group of the year and it was like a way retreat and we had over 100 kids middle school and high school who were there and it was just awesome and it was really more of a community, you know start of the year party. But we also were able to celebrate Mass and one of my favorite things about, you know, being in youth ministry and ministry in general is I really like celebrating Mass in places that aren't churches and I know that sounds crazy Like, trust me, mass in a church, in a cathedral, is like absolutely beautiful. There's a reason we go there every Sunday. But I think there is something kind of special to I don't know watching or not watching, participating in a mass that is outdoors. That is you know, not ordinary.
Joe:Yeah, not ordinary, and I feel like it really brings me.
Katie:It's extraordinary, it is Extraordinary, extraordinary.
Joe:But like and granted, like I don't think the disciples were like, you know, two hours before a service. They were like riding a zip line into a lake, like I don't think that was probably happening.
Katie:But that's what we were doing. In case you were wondering where that came from yes, that is what we were doing at the retreat.
Joe:But like it brings me to a sense of communion with how I feel like the first apostles and the first disciples celebrated mass.
Katie:Yeah.
Joe:Like you know, it was outdoors it was. Yeah, rugged it was in, you know, people's basements and like I just think there's something that brings people together about that.
Katie:Yeah Well, I think that's the beauty of the mass too.
Joe:Like you can go to like a high mass, traditional Latin mass, and then you can go like, uh, an outdoor mass with like five or six people, like it's it all holds the same kind of like I remember growing up we had a priest who would um, I guess it only happened once, but he came on vacation like with um, my mom's extended family, and every morning he had daily mass. And like we, we had like all my me and like my little cousins. We all took turns like altar serving and reading, and like it was just in this like you know little kitchen that overlooked the ocean, and like it was awesome, like to just start your day and have like a little intimate mass was really cool.
Katie:Yeah, that's probably one of my favorite memories too. We have a lot of priests in the family and so when we all get together it's really cool because we can just do mass together. And the last time we did that was probably my grandpa's funeral. We were all at my parents' house, which is like this barn looking house in the middle of nowhere with like five acres surrounding it, a beautiful like wraparound porch, and we all just sat on the porch, like with my whole family, and celebrated mass together outside on like a beautiful bishop doing mass for like what?
Katie:14 people maybe it's just awesome yeah, the day after the funeral and it was just a beautiful, beautiful time of communion.
Joe:So um, I would say for my pit I actually I don't have tummy problems right now.
Katie:Thankfully I've been spared that You're having other problems.
Joe:I do feel like I'm on the brink, like I feel like I get sick maybe twice a year, like semi-annually, and I feel like I'm on the brink, like it's just started to get a little bit cooler, even though today was hot, but it started to get a little bit cooler out and I feel I'm I'm prepping for that. Like next three days I feel like I might get sick. So we'll find out hopefully not.
Katie:We can't both be unwell at the same time yeah, somebody has to care for the other yeah, and if we're both sick to be you, yeah, you're right, does it needs to be?
Joe:me. I'm not body. You are not allowed to be sick anyways, that's the update on us.
Katie:We are both unwell, but we had great weekends yes it's been an awesome week we cannot complain um, but what were you about?
Joe:to say I was just gonna say what you said we're both unwell. Unwell physically, well mentally, spiritually yes, all, we need all we exactly um.
Katie:Anyways, thank you for tuning in. This has been a highly anticipated podcast on my end nobody else knows, nobody knows on my end. I've known that I've wanted to record this. We've known we wanted to record this for a while and, for being totally honest, it's taken us. This is probably like our fifth attempt yeah, probably somewhere around there.
Katie:Yeah and anyways, the topic is waiting versus hoping, and this is just a generic theme that I think we're going to be grappling with for the rest of our lives. But right now, in our season of life, like it is, feels very like bold capitalized. You are in a waiting season, yeah, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of discernment in that kind of season and there's a lot of struggle, but there's a lot that you grow from and learn from. Um, specifically, what we're waiting for is to start our family. We've been wanting to start a family for a while now. Um and um. We didn't realize that we were going to have infertility issues. I don't like that word, but Joe thinks it's important for me to say it?
Joe:I do think it is. It's giving you power over it already. You're already getting stronger.
Katie:Anyways, I've avoided that word for a long time, but we're here, we're owning it and I'm just really glad that you're. I mean, whether or not you knew this is what you were getting yourself into. Thanks for tuning in.
Joe:Yes.
Katie:So, with that being said, it is a really tough topic. I just don't really know how to approach it gracefully. But I'm realizing more and more that that is what makes it beautiful, that's what makes it a very special season, is because there is a lot of grace involved, but it does not feel graceful. It feels cracked and broken and heavy.
Joe:When I think in terms of the waiting versus hoping. Sometimes there is grace in both waiting and in hoping.
Katie:Absolutely for sure. Yeah, so just to start, one of my favorite verses is Matthew 6, 21. This is probably the one verse that I can picture in my head, highlighted in my very first bible, and it says for where your treasure is, there your heart will also be it has been on our chalkboard many a times, I believe times. I have to remind myself of this all the time. So, for where your treasure is there, your heart will also be Joe, what do you think that means to you?
Joe:I think it's a great verse because I think the deeper you get into your faith and I mean a lot of scriptures like this it means something to you initially when you read it and when you're in one part in your journey with Christ, and then I think it means something else maybe further on down the road.
Joe:I would say for me, when I first read this, I think it's kind of the same thing that everybody reads, like when you, when you view treasure. It's kind of the same thing as like well, what you spend your money and your time on, like one of the famous sayings in the Catholic church is like you know time, talent and treasure. You know how do you give your time, give your talent and give your treasure, which is your money, and I kind of think of that. You know, my first reading was that like if you are spending your time and your talents and your money on something that is, you know, maybe a way or not aligned with the will of Christ, like your heart will go there as well, like that will be your religion, that will be your God, and so you truly have to put God in that first.
Katie:Yeah.
Joe:Go ahead no no, no. I was going to say, as I've gotten older, I view it I mean, I think that still holds true, but I view it a little bit less as, like the time, talent and treasure funny enough, even though the word is treasure and more of where are you aligning your desires?
Joe:because I think treasure is the reason the word is treasure, and not money or gold or time. The reason the word is treasure, because I feel like treasure is something you want or something you hold dear, and whatever you're holding dear, that is where your heart is.
Katie:Oh yeah, absolutely. I think you nailed it on the head. Is that the right thing? You did it. You did a great job, nailed it on the head Well yeah, hit the nail on the head.
Joe:I think nailed it on the head is like it's close enough. I forget what the other one was in one of our previous attempts.
Katie:There was one that was really good. Something with knocking the head. Oh yeah, Got it wrong again.
Joe:You said it was not knocking the head. It was you were saying something and you didn't want to toot your own horn, but you said you didn't want to knock your own horn. Yeah, that's what it was.
Katie:You're just knocking that horn around.
Joe:What does it mean to you in the context of especially this topic of waiting versus hoping and our journey of wanting to start our family?
Katie:I think you nailed it on the head.
Joe:You'll get there one day, or maybe never.
Katie:I think you really took the words right out of my mouth. That's definitely where my heart's at, too. Knowing what you are desiring is where your heart will be. So knowing exactly what, where your desires lie, whether that is heaven bound or earth bound, is really good for you. Just to like reflect on this verse, because it puts your heart into perspective as to what am I treasuring in my life.
Katie:And I think this verse is important for this topic, for me specifically, because you know, there's a reason we haven't talked about it in a while or in this like neutral context. So like we, obviously our family knows, our friends know, but I feel like it's when we talk about it, it's a very emotional conversation, like I don't know how to express myself when I'm feeling like at this loss of control. And then when we talk to friends and family about it, we try really hard to make it seem casual, like oh, it's no big deal, like yeah, we're not pregnant right now, but like don't worry about us, because I just you don't want to burden people with that. And I think that, in a way, I'm like safeguarding my heart by being so casual about it, because I want people to receive this as the treasure it has been to me and that you might think like, wait, treasure like this seems like a heavy topic, like this does not align with like prize worthy treasure type things.
Katie:But initially, yes, like this verse. To me it's like I want to share in my joy. So I want you also to treasure what brings me joy. But now I'm realizing, the older that I get, the things that bring me suffering, the things that are hard, I also want people to receive with the same kind of reverence and the same kind of value that I have value it with.
Joe:I think that it like something that's really important to you, and why this is such a cool versus and why maybe this has been a struggle, is like I think you really want to be received well and, and excuse me, not received well.
Joe:I think you really want to be heard and understood yeah no matter where you're coming from, and you've you've praised me quite a bit on this podcast. Thank you very much, uh. But one thing I am not very good at, and one thing I do a lot is I yuck Katie's yum. If you know what that means, it's basically like Katie will be Rain on my parade. Yeah, you said it, that's perfect.
Katie:That one I know pretty well yeah.
Joe:Because I do it too much, but sometimes I do rain on Katie's parade and I know I'm trying to be better about not doing that and I know how much that it hurts you when you feel like you know you're trying to share something that's bringing you joy, something that's been important to you, and when you hear like oh well, like that's not important or oh well, like you know, you know it's just something going on, like that's that can hurt you and I think that you know you may be safeguarding that treasure, but sometimes it's.
Joe:It is important to share you know, regardless of the you know um of how people receive it. Like it's important to share, and this goes for me and you like. It's important to share these things because God wants to use other people, I think, sometimes to value that treasure and to value you know where your heart is and where your intentions are, but he can't do that using other people if if they don't know yeah, if we don't talk about it yeah, well and I think, like this infertility journey, or this journey with fertility problems, it has, for the longest time, been like a silent discernment period that I, truly, I have cherished in my heart, and it's felt like a very intimate walk with God and with each other.
Katie:And so, you know, we've adored together and now it's the total different battlefield venturing out into the world and sharing it with the world, because there's a lot of vulnerability in that.
Katie:And, like you, said like there's a lot of fear and insecurity on my end that it won't be received well, or in that it will kind of diminish the value of my struggle and I just don't, you don't, you know, you don't know until you do it. But I, ultimately, I felt encouraged by you, I felt encouraged by my spiritual director to just put it out there, because I know for one, when I've listened to women talk about their struggles with this same topic, the ones that impact me the most are the women that are like, hey, this is my story and guess what? It still is. I still am still having issues with it.
Katie:Like hearing the, the women who share, like I've struggled with this for years, but now look at my beautiful, fruitful family. I love that for them. I really, really do, and it is so encouraging and there's a lot of hope there. But you don't see the struggle beforehand and I didn't. For the longest time I wanted to wait so that I could be that girl that was like oh yeah, like guess what guys like I struggled for years, but here I am, like now I have a baby.
Katie:I wanted to be that girl like I wanted to wait until that time, but I just realized how much more meaningful and impactful it was to hear from somebody in the midst of that struggle, and so I felt encouraged, I think, to do it, and my biggest hope that is my biggest hope for this episode is to reach out to someone similar to myself and encourage you in the waiting.
Joe:Yeah, so I guess, how do you interpret the waiting of this period for us?
Katie:Oh yeah. So the topic waiting versus hoping I think you know there's a big difference between waiting just waiting and hoping like there's a way that you can do both and make it fruitful. But I think waiting for me in this season has just been kind of going through the motions, you know, kind of expecting it to happen at some point, Like I, I, this is a normal biological thing, yeah, um, and I'm waiting for it to happen at some point.
Katie:Like I, I this is a normal biological thing, yeah, and I'm waiting for it to happen. But the problem with just doing it that way is when it doesn't happen, you're like well, God just doesn't want this for me.
Joe:Yeah.
Katie:And he'll never give it to me. But hoping is knowing like God is going to give me my heart's biggest desires, and I know you know it might not look like the way I want it to, but I know he's not going to leave me to dust.
Joe:Do you feel like waiting is somewhat of a passive Like? Waiting is the passive version of hoping, like in my head, the way I kind of viewed it you know katie touched on it a little bit like the way our journey kind of started, was we? We were, I would say, you know, not actively trying. We weren't not trying. We knew, like for the first year or so of our marriage we were kind of of, you know, just seeing what would happen. And I think and we can touch on this in a little bit but something Katie and I both thought was we liked saying we weren't trying. And you know we were kind of to Katie's point, expecting that maybe it would just happen, and I think that we were really passive in it. You know we used NFP and a few other. You know charting examples and you know fertility apps and I don't know. There's all sorts of stuff. I learned a lot. I have really still have no idea what's going on to be honest.
Joe:But, like you know, I'm trying to be there and be supportive, but I think it was really about maybe I don't know a year, 18 months to a year ago, where we really realized that, hey, we were being too passive and waiting and I think that it became an expectation to your point that it was going to happen, versus, I think, when we really started hoping.
Joe:and it has certainly made it, I think, a little bit more painful, you know, in hoping, because I feel like by hoping you become a little bit more vulnerable but you also become a lot more active in the action.
Katie:Yeah.
Katie:And I think, like once, we actively started trying and having that hope, this is where the journey changed, for you know better and worse, I guess, if you will, and I think that's really true for me, because I get my hopes up, guys, yes, and when they are not met Then I fall so low because I have high expectations for myself and I know that that sets me up for failure sometimes and so naturally I kind of push those expectations onto God. So when I am told to have hope, it's scary, because with having hope there's a great possibility for grave disappointment.
Joe:And I think that's what happened, you know. So I think I guess it was probably about a year ago. I can't to be honest with you, the timelines all run together in my head. But I remember when we first started seeing a doctor, it we changed like a ton of stuff. I mean katie and I cut out like all sorts of food we take. Like between the two of us we probably take like 20 pills a day and, like you know, like we look, when we were like getting ready for bed, like literally just before this podcast, I was like, oh, I'm traveling this week.
Katie:Like let me make sure my pillbox is like correct and everything.
Joe:And you know we've been doing this for a little while now and I think there is some discouragement, especially when you have transitioned from waiting to hoping and you feel like you're doing the right things. Like you know, we have gone to see doctors, we have taken all these pills, we've changed our diet and you feel like you're doing the right things, but you're still not kind of getting that, the outcome you're hoping for, right.
Katie:Yeah, I think that's the hardest part is when you're doing all the right things and you're not getting what you're supposed to get out of it. But you know, that's just my negative, pessimistic perspective on things. I think we have gained a lot from this journey and I guess just to kind of backtrack so you kind of know where we're at, we use a method called natural family planning. When we first got married, for the first few months or so of being married we were young so we were scared of getting pregnant. And then very quickly we became comfortable with the idea of starting a family and just kind of winged it for a little while. And when that didn't work we decided we had to really start taking charting seriously. So we used a method called the Creighton Method and started charting very seriously. We got referred to a specialist that happened to be in South Carolina and that is when Joe mentioned.
Katie:We met with the doctor and like our whole lives changed, like we had to change our diets. We had to take a bajillion, probably like 30 pills a day. For me that's probably too much I had to do. I take all these lab tests. I had to get my hormones tested every month because I'm deficient or low in estrogen and progesterone, so a lot of like unraveling, like one thing after another. So then it became like not about just getting pregnant. It was like I have to address these health issues that's going on too. That might potentially be blocking us from this thing that I really, really want for us. But it was a good distraction. It was a good thing for me to focus on instead of every month being really disappointed in something not happening, but it was a really fruitful time.
Katie:But, like you said, it was very discouraging to be doing this and, month after month, not really getting what you've ultimately been hoping for. Like I joked with Joe when we made the first appointment, I was like, well, surely we'll get pregnant before we see the doctor. And then after that I obviously saw the doctor and she mentioned potentially needing surgery and I was like, well, surely we'll get pregnant before surgery. And then that happened and then the doctor is moving.
Katie:By the end of this month she's going to Texas, so I have to find a new doctor and I'm like, well, surely we're going to get pregnant before she leaves. Here we are guys.
Joe:But it was a fruitful time and she honestly, not only did she prescribe us vitamins and supplements and labs, but she prescribed, like prayer, prescriptions for us Like it was she gave us a novena to pray yeah, and it just felt like ordained and meant to be, even though it wasn't what I really really wanted so in these times, so like we talked about, like waiting is kind of the passive like you basically are when there's these big things you want you start waiting for them at first, before you're kind of ready to start waiting for them at first, before you're kind of ready to start hoping for them, and when you're in this mode and the mindset of like, okay, I'm ready to really start hoping for this, how have you tried to balance? You know, the reality that's been challenging, that is, we really want to have a baby and we've, we're hoping for one, but it hasn't happened yet. Like how are you balancing that in your head?
Katie:well?
Joe:not well, but I think you're doing better than you give yourself credit, I know.
Katie:I think sometimes I get the waiting and the hoping confused. You know, neither of like. Waiting isn't necessarily a bad thing, but waiting with, like I said earlier, waiting without hoping lacks purpose. Waiting feels endless and hoping feels purposeful. And I spent too much time believing that I was waiting for something that God just would not give me. And that's when I realized I just didn't have the trust that was necessary to transform that waiting into hope. And it's that trust is that that's what gives these seasons of uncertainty, this season of uncertainty, a purpose. And it's that trust is that that's what gives these seasons of uncertainty, this season of uncertainty, a purpose. And that's what I'm trying to lean on. And I really don't think that it's possible to have that hope without having that unconditional intention towards God.
Katie:And it's that lack of control, I think, is what really changed things for me, when I realized, okay, check, I've charted everything perfectly Still nothing. I've taken all the medicines and vitamins Still nothing. I'm doing. Changed my diet Still nothing. And then, once I've checked off my whole list and there's nothing else that I can do, it's like, well, god has your attention, he has my attention. And it's in that moment and it happens, it cascades right, like sometimes I'm like I got this, I'm totally fine, and sometimes I just absolutely am a mess because I have no control. It's in that moment where I just don't really have a choice but to lean on God, and that's where the hope, I guess, is born, you know yeah, I.
Joe:It kind of reminds me a little bit and I don't know if this is going to make sense, so stop me if it doesn't. But the idea is kind of like you hope is is again, you tend to want and hope good things. And like I just remember hearing know, my mom always used to say this like you know she, you know, if you hear somebody you know, a lot of times people will pray like, oh Lord, please give me patience. Right, you know, I've all this stuff going on. I really need patience. But oftentimes what God gives you is not patience itself, is the opportunities to be patient.
Joe:Yeah, right Because like he can't necessarily make us choose to be patient. All he can do is allow us, you know, the opportunity to choose that and I think, with hoping for this and hoping for anything that is your treasure, right Back to the Bible verse, like, we all have these really close desires held to our heart and when we hope for those, oftentimes what we're given is not necessarily that desire or that want that's close to our heart, but opportunities to hope for it, because the hope is what is truly beautiful and because it's trusting. Like to your point, when you're really hoping, it's completely giving that trust to God and saying, listen, I am willing to I don't know how to phrase it I'm willing to put myself out there with the you know, with the desire for this to happen, for the hope for this to happen, and I trust you, lord, that you will either A make it happen or B will give me the opportunity to I don't want to say change your desire, but to find your new treasure.
Katie:Yeah.
Joe:Right.
Katie:Yeah, and it feels kind of cruel though sometimes, because you know that he is all-powerful miracle worker. And it feels sometimes and I know this is not the nature of God, but I'm just being honest like it feels like he's dangling this prize in front of me and it's just not within reach and I'm never going to reach it. So it feels hard to shift your mind and hope for the good. But I think what really transformed my mindset I finally, like I will backtrack, like I try really hard not to get sad because when I get sad I get sad and I try really hard to suppress those feelings just as a way, because I just I don't like falling into that low spot and it's easier to just kind of suppress those feelings. But I was encouraged one time by my spiritual director to just like own it Maybe God does not want you to put on this face anymore Like just grieve, because even though you aren't technically losing anything physical every month, you are losing something. So you have to properly grieve Because even though you aren't technically losing anything physical every month, you are losing something. So you have to properly grieve that.
Katie:And I realized I never really confronted God about this in prayer or at church or anything. I just kind of accepted it as something that I've had to deal with on my own. And so one time we went to confession and I admitted to the priest, I was like I am so angry at God and I explained what was going on. And it was after that confession that I accepted the fact that what I wanted for myself in this season is not what he wants for me, for us right now, for whatever reason. It's just not what he wants and that's the only, that's the only thing I can deem true, because nothing else made sense. And truly accepting the way I felt and accepting that this was just my reality changed the way that I prayed about it. And I remember writing in my journal asking God. Specifically, I said God, do not give us a child until our hearts and our bodies are prepared to receive this gift as it is. And it just changed because I was accepting where I was, but I was still asking for what I wanted.
Katie:And I don't know what about this changed my mindset, but it did give me this new sense of trust in the unknown, trusting that he is shifting and working in my soul and in my body. He's truly I mean literally, I'm preparing my body by taking these vitamins and by doing all the things like changing my diet to better bring a child into this world, if that's what he wants for us. So I'm trusting that he's working behind the scenes so that I can receive his joy. Right, we talked about that earlier the scene so that I can receive his joy. Right, we talked about that earlier. Just like we want our treasures to be received as treasures, god wants us to receive it in that fullness too. He wants us to receive it in that fullness of joy and love, the same way that he has for that child or whatever it is that you're desiring, whatever that may look like. So I think that's just where we're at right now. That might look like.
Joe:So I think that's just where we're at right now, like, and I would say too, on top of that, like ultimately, for, for my end, on, you know, maintaining hope through it all. When it feels like, hey, I'm doing everything and it's still not working out the way I want it to in my head, it's like why not hope for it? Yeah, you know and like it's, it's why not hope for it? Yeah.
Joe:You know You're really good at that and it's hard because it can feel almost like a little bit like you're disassociating yourself from what's going on. Because I know that's like part of my struggle sometimes is just disassociating from struggles or challenges and just saying like, well, okay, I might as well like not worry about it, or like, hey, that's just the way it is and that can be a danger in it. But in my head it's like, okay, I have two options here. You know, once again, once you're transitioning from that that waiting phase into hoping, or you're in that mindset of like okay, I'm ready to start hoping and desiring strongly, you have two options you can either despair of something or hope for something.
Joe:And I would rather, you know again, in our case, I would rather hope for a child than despair of not having one. And you know, and that can go for anything. You know, if you have a family member who's struggling with a severe illness, okay, you can either despair that they may pass, or you can hope for a cure and hope for a miracle. And sure, like in the back of your mind, you can know like, hey, this is probably how it's going to go, but you might as well continue to hope you know, and I think I mean imagine how the disciples felt right after Christ died.
Joe:I mean this guy who they, you know, spent a lot, you know, two years following and, you know, forsaking their, some of their friends, some of their family to follow him, and he dies, you know, and I can't imagine the despair. But I'm sure they also hoped that, that he would. You know, I don't know if they hoped necessarily that he would resurrect, but they hoped that he would come back or he hoped that there was some miracle there.
Katie:Yeah, yeah.
Joe:And I think that's what we're called to do. And I think again, it just all goes back to like, I think, ultimately a feeling of in Christianity. We feel like, oh well, it must be happy, happy, lovey-dovey all the time. But there's, you know, and especially like, oh well, if you accept Jesus and I know this is coming on the heels of us releasing a podcast about joy but faith is hard. Christ lived a joyful life, but his life was also filled with lots of suffering and lots of hardships. And you just have to. You have to handle that and understand that, knowing like listen, there's going to be these challenges and it's not going to be all happy.
Katie:Sometimes it's going to be hard to hold on to that.
Joe:And not only is it going to be hard just for the sake of doing something hard. You're doing something that's challenging their struggles and strife, because that is how you connect with Jesus when he was going through those things. Yeah, strife because that is how you connect with Jesus. When he was going through those things, you know, if all you're trying to do is be happy, then you're only going to be able to relate to Jesus when he was happy, but so much of his life was so much more than that.
Katie:Yeah.
Joe:And God wants us to understand the full picture of the life his son lived.
Katie:Yeah, I like that you brought up when Jesus died, and like how the disciples respond, because that's something that I feel so close to and what we're going through too. You know, like I think about when Jesus died, he told, like his disciples, that he was going to come back. Like he said, I'm going to die, but I'm going to come back, you know, and they were like, okay, okay, whatever that means. And so then it actually happens, right, like we know what the Bible says, we know what God teaches, but when you are in the thick of it, can you trust his word? Right? And I think about how I would respond, like when the woman went up to the tomb and saw that it was empty, like what was her first thought? And I think to myself, I'm like, what would I think when I go?
Katie:Yeah, yeah, this is what that feels like, like, I know what Jesus taught me and I know, I know that he'll come through for me. But sometimes you, you roll back the rock or whatever and you look into the tomb and it's empty and you're like, okay, so he did. He did do what he was going to say, but I feel like he's abandoned me Like I feel like he left me on this earth.
Joe:Yeah.
Katie:And obviously we know how the story ends. We know he didn't actually leave us, but it's sometimes.
Katie:Yeah, right now and we're trusting in the unknown. We don't know what's going to look like and it's hard, I think, to talk about, because I I don't want to admit that it's hard. I don't I feel some sort of like shame and complaining because I know of the things that people have gone through and how long they've had to wait and all the other things that happen. Hang on, but I want to. I want to stop you there.
Joe:I know I know I I katie has mentioned this multiple times, as we've talked about this and recorded the podcast, and I say this to you, but also as something I think that's important for potentially the listeners to hear. Whatever you are going through, it is important to you and it is challenging for you, and somebody else's story and journey should not lessen the burden that you bear right yeah some people.
Joe:People handle all sorts of different obstacles and challenges throughout life very differently and you know, do not. Uh, I think it's really important not to sell yourself short. And that's's you, katie, my wife, but also anybody is the listeners Like, don't sell yourself short on the on the cross that you are currently bearing. You know, like, just because you know, just because a middle schooler, their cross that they're bearing is like man school's really hard right now, like that doesn't make it any less of a cross to bear, like that is what they're struggling with, this is what you are struggling with. Like, sure, there are plenty of people who have and I'm sorry I cut you off on this, but it's it's. I think it's really important.
Joe:And you know, sure there are certain people who have struggled much longer than we have with with infertility, but that doesn't make their or yours any more or less. It is the same struggle. And it's the same struggle if you're overcoming an illness, if you're overcoming a sin, if you're overcoming just any struggle in your life. Don't downplay it. Allow yourself to know that it is a struggle and not feel ashamed that oh well. Well, other people have other struggles like that. To me, that is, that is Satan, that is the devil. Telling you that, like your struggle is not enough.
Katie:Yeah, that's not true. I know you've given me that talk before, but I'm just being honest and I'm sure and I'm saying that because I'm sure people feel the same way about not wanting to talk about it but there's so much, there's so so much empowerment, I think, in owning it and talking about it, because then you?
Katie:have power over it and it no longer has power over you. And, if anything, it makes me find so much empathy for any couple, anybody who's going through a waiting season. Any time that you have to wait for something you heart really, really wants, wants, my heart goes out to you. The waiting is hard regardless, and so if you're in this season, please know that I'm praying for you and walking with you. We're walking with you and we know how hard it is and we know there are no words really to comfort you.
Joe:But never, ever give up on hope.
Katie:Never give up on hope, have high hopes.
Katie:That's my favorite saying now it's like it's okay to have high hopes, like it's actually like you should. If you believe what you believe in god, then you should be having high hopes. But I think what brings me the most comfort these days is like being able to like look back on my life and the times that I have felt low and I have really turned to God and seeing how God has come through. Like I can, we could probably talk together about all the ways that God has come through for us when we didn't know what was going to happen and we know he has. And so it brings comfort to me knowing that some point in our life we're going to have an episode we don't know when that it will be and where we can tell you guys like we get it like or I get it God. Like I understand we can get to that point where we were like this is this makes sense now. Like I understand and like I have a lot of confidence that we will get there.
Joe:Yeah. So we are not going to do a marriage meeting on this episode just because it's a long one and it's a little more serious topic sometimes than some of our other ones. So I just want to leave you with a quote, and it's probably my favorite quote. We had Katie's favorite Bible verse. This is probably a top two or three quote for me. It's from Saint Pope John Paul. He's got a lot of names, if we're honest.
Katie:I mean, he's a great St Pope, John Paul, he's got a lot of names.
Joe:If we're honest, I mean, he's a great one. St Pope John Paul II, I plead with you never, ever give up on hope, never doubt, never tire and never become discouraged. Be not afraid. Have a great day y'all. Let's keep going, dan. Bye, so so, thank you.